Interview with Mike Jaynes
For Paragon Magazine and Paragon Earth May 2009
Also appeared in Paragon Music Magazine Issue #43 July 2009
Mike Jaynes is a college lecturer at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, where he teaches English and Humanities but also doubles as the resident animal rights activist, teaching his students about the abuse endured by animals throughout human history, especially today. I personally found out about Mike when I read one of his many published articles in The Animals Voice Magazine, and had to get in touch to thank him for writing it the way he did. Currently, he's working on making even more of an impact in the animal rights field, writing a book and speaking at conferences around the world. His passion, talent, and open mind and heart are what make him so endearing, so check out the following interview to learn more about him, then search him online to check out some of his articles.
Lisa Selvaggio: How long have you been active in the animal rights movement? At what point did you realize this is something you had to pursue?
Mike Jaynes: I've been vegetarian for about 8 years. I've only been active in the AR movement for about three. The first issue that brought me into the fold was that of factory farming. I simply felt too terrible for the farm animals to continue eating meat. From there, I have gone on to specialize in elephants and sharks, but it was the pigs, specifically, who were the original impetus to quit eating meat. It was an elephant named Stoney, and his story, who made me become active in AR.
LS: Doesn't it suck we can't spend all our time advocating for animals' rights and that we have to squeeze it in in between other jobs? ::wink::
MJ: If only "animal advocate" was a full time job with all the perks!
LS: You were a speaker at the AR Conference in D.C. in August '08. What topic were you invited to speak about, and how was that whole experience for you? Was that the first time you'd ever done anything like that?
MJ: I was invited to speak about the issue of circus elephants and what those guys undergo during training, travel, and performance. I was very glad to be able to do that because elephants were not heavily represented at the conference. There were key elephant organizations in attendance, but they (and other animals used for performance) often don't get the press other abused animals do. So I was proud to speak on their behalf. AR08 was a great experience; Alex Hershaft and the rest of the people at FARM are dedicated and on fire and were very helpful to me, a first-time presenter at their conference. I had given other public lectures, but AR08 was a very special time for me.
LS: As a college professor, what's the general reaction you get from your students when you go into issues involving animal ethics?
MJ: Generally students are rather open to discussions regarding how we should treat animals who are at our mercy. There are always closed-minded hatemongers; however, most undergrads are in the prime of their lives and they are usually forward thinking and ready to engage the issues of the world. Often, students have no idea what modern factory farming or other animal abuse industries entail. And when they do, for the most part, they want to actively change the way things are. I am far from an animal expert, but I have great hope for the future generations. Young people today are much less complacent and much less accepting of generationally inherited hatred and bigotry. I have hope for the future of all animals, including ourselves. Working around and with these young idealists, I am certain, is a large source of my wellspring of Hope.
LS: So many people in the movement have varying opinions regarding the best way to get the public to change its ways, whether it's in regards to not eating meat, not wearing fur, not using animals in entertainment, etc. In your opinion, what's the best way to approach the general public about these issues?
MJ: I'm a big fan of incremental change, as hotly debated as that is. All widespread social change happens incrementally; lasting broad scale worldwide change has never, and will never, happen immediately. American slaves were not truly free overnight; women were not recognized as fully human immediately following suffrage. In fact, it is easily argued that women and minorities are still emerging from the long dark night of Eurocentric patriarchal oppression. To expect the average carnivore to go from Hardee's Sausage Biscuit eating to Vegetarian overnight is not realistic. I believe facts should be provided and then the person should be free to choose their way...even if they continue to eat animals. I'm a big believer in not harassing or belittling animal eaters. They are not evil people; they simply have a different set of values than does the vegetarian. And that's okay. And, that is a very nuanced and difficult to understand element of my approach for some AR minded people. To hit the public with heavy handed rhetoric and guilt-ridden messages is not the way to truly help animals. For nonhuman animals to be recognized as individuals in our human society, the broadest global paradigm shift to ever take place in the history of humanity will have to occur. After all, we ourselves are animals who have been mistreated and fed outrageously huge amounts of lies by the powers that were/be/will be. We're addicted to fast food, the media, civilization, cars, and other things because we have been wronged and told these things are acceptable. For humanity to truly realize the importance of all animals, humanity will have to realize it is an animal itself. Then, humanity's embracing of its animality would enable us to abandon our anthropocentrism we have inherited and begin to embrace biocentrism, the worldview that views humanity not as the most important king of nature but simply a key and integrated portion of it. Once we realize we are a natural part of the Earth, an integrated super intelligent organism that is only a portion of the biosphere, then we might be able to go against our eons of presupposed human dominion and simply do the right thing. Until that paradigm shift, however, advancing AR will remain difficult. That being said, we should not give up on our utopian dreams, but we should applaud incremental victories for animals...even the broadest welfare improvements. I understand many disagree with me, but that's my two cents.
LS: I recently read a short op-ed style article in a small independent newspaper in which the writer was complaining about the bill pending in NY that would stop the use of animals in circuses like Ringling Bros. He called us "animal rights zealots" and said that the only way children can experience these animals is by keeping them in zoos and circuses and such because they're going extinct in the wild. I'm sure you find this as infuriating and ignorant as I do, but what are your thoughts when someone says something like this?
MJ: I think they are uninformed and mistaken. Viewing captive and broken animals in various states of damaged psychology does not instill an appreciation for wildlife in children or adults. It simply reinforces the hierarchical paradigm allowing humans to utilize animals in the first place. Animals (human or non-human) have a right to exist that is intrinsic and separate from other humans' need or usage of them. They are going extinct in the wild because many indigenous people do not respect or value them, and obviously centuries of circus and zoo attendance has not helped the cause. The global demand for ivory is one such example. But to delve more deeply, I do not necessarily believe children have any sort of "right" to view wild animals at all. Don't get me wrong, it's great when they can view them in sanctuaries or on photographic non-consumptive safaris, perhaps, but the animals should be allowed to live as closely as possible to the manner for which they evolved. I realize the animals currently in captivity can never be released to the wild (for the most part), and we owe it to those individuals to make their lives as easy as possible. Sanctuary is the answer; not allowing people to gawk and prod/poke them (the list of indignities animals in zoos have suffered at the hands of humans is lengthy and harrowing). To say someone wants animals to be kept in circuses and zoos for some sort of betterment of children, or even for children's enjoyment, is illogical. Also, if animals were not going extinct in the wild, would the children of the world be tramping out into Africa and India to experience these animals? The author of that op-ed piece doesn't seem to be a champion of children's viewing rights; he seems to be reactionary and the usage of terms like "zealots" reveals his mindset to be unalterable. I often hear from people who have inflexible views and who also expect me to be inflexible and combative. I smile and allow us our ethical differences. I have no problem with that, and I respect individuality. It is often the non-AR minded people who will not allow us our differences. When they realize I have heard their arguments and informed them I disagree and can leave it at that, they become less combative. People expect AR advocates, for some reason, to be angry and ready to force people to change. When people get that I am a peaceful, really quite happy, eccentric person with specific views and the ability to see past human ethical differences, they really quit baiting me and trying to get me to argue with them. And then maybe some progress was made. Who knows?
LS: You're a busy guy. What are some of the projects you're currently working on that people can expect from you in the near future?
MJ: I'm working on a book about the 600 or so captive and performing elephants in the United States. I'm also scheduled to make speaking appearances in the end of April at the 2009 Summit for Elephants near San Andreas, California, hosted by the Performing Animal Welfare Society. I'm excited about that, as I've never toured their elephant sanctuary before. I'm also scheduled to appear in July at ARO9 in Los Angeles and in Melborne, Australia, at the 2009 Minding Animals Conference, also in July. Other than that, teaching keeps me happily busy.
LS: What are some things, aside from your diet choices, that you do in your everyday life to help make an impact?
MJ: As you know, diet is the biggee. But I also attempt to publish articles and otherwise engage the public. I try to help birds and rodents around my house and the like. But mostly, I attempt to consume less and tread more lightly on this damaged and beautiful Earth.
LS: What do you think of laws like the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act? Do you think that people stop protesting and taking action because of it, or do you think it's largely ignored by those in the movement?
MJ: Well, it has specific language worked into it that supposedly specifically protects peaceful assembly and protest. However, I know a large number of the direct action AR activists have taken huge umbrage to it. I must say I have not looked deeply into it, as I do not tend to focus on legislation. AETA is an area in which I am largely ignorant, but I've heard from others it's a little scary.
LS: When you call yourself an animal rights activist, are you ever afraid that you're being put on some government watch list? ::laughs:: It's sad but true.
MJ: Never. I believe everything I do for animals is good and kind and just. Therefore I will never fear doing the right thing. I break no laws and I encourage no one to break any laws; therefore, I am not concerned in the least about being "listed."
LS: Is there anyone working in the movement that you admire or even consider a hero?
MJ: I admire many people who are active for animals, but I don't really keep up with the "big names" in the movement so I really can't offer anyone up off the top of my head. Of course I was and remain a big fan of Steve Irwin, but it is truly the unknown AR advocates and compassionate people I most admire. One man at one of my lectures came up to me afterwards and told me he was 79 years old and when he heard an "animal person" was talking he almost didn't come. However, he did and he told me that even though he tried to disagree with me and not like me, he could not. He then told me he has eaten animals all his life but he thought my points are valid, he liked me, and he was going to give up all meat except chicken because his wife loves chicken and he didn't want to take that away from her. Of course I care for the fate of chickens too, but his decision and words really moved me. If he stuck to his plan, he no longer eats cows, ducks, or pigs. To me, that's impressive. And I think it is the anonymous people attempting to no longer eat animals and getting harassed by so-called friends and family who impress me the most.
LS: What was your family's reaction to your going vegetarian? Did you, or do you still, find resistance from them in any way, or at the very least, do you still get strange looks from them for what you believe?
MJ: They have always known me to be eccentric, so when I quit eating meat (something they consider eccentric) they were not surprised. They accept my decisions, I accept theirs, and life is peaceful.
LS: What do you think it'll take for people to finally wake up and see their connection to other living things, and the planet as a living organism in and of itself?
MJ: I think it will take a truly biocentric paradigm shift. For some reason I will never fathom, simply viewing the horror and terror of factory farms is not enough for some people...for most people, actually. I cannot count the number of people who have told me "I have seen the undercover videos [a la "Meet Your Meat"] and I feel bad that it happens, but I'm still going to keep eating meat." They shrug, smile, and continue with their ways and days. Viewing the horrors does not do it for most people, and I think some AR advocates don't understand this. For the majority of humans, seeing signage signifying bloody horrors does not convince. Perhaps that says something vastly dark about humanity; I hope not. However, if this country is to go vegetarian, this country would have to have hundreds of cheap and affordable vegan fast food restaurants and it would have to be socially disagreeable to continue to eat meat. This convenience is what I mean by a "truly biocentric paradigm shift." It appears most people I speak with do not go vegetarian because of two reasons. One, they feel their lives require the convenience of meat and fast food. And two, they fear some sort of backlash or negative stereotyping from their loved ones. It appears we often care more about our unnecessary convenience than we do the suffering of sentient individuals. That is shameful. That being said, I have no idea how to begin a shift of that magnitude. For me and you, seeing the suffering firsthand was enough, understanding the horrible truth of the everyday matters behind the closed doors of the fur, meat, dairy, performing, captive, and other animal abuse industries was enough to make us at least try to get those things out of our lives. For others, nonhuman suffering is not enough of an impetus. I'll leave the deconstruction and analysis of that observation to the philosophers. Again, not my bag.
LS: Is there anything else you'd like to say that hasn't already been discussed?
MJ: I would like to add that the meat industry, for example, exploits humans as well. It is well known most abattoir workers are illegal aliens with few options. The wages to dismember animals are large in comparison to other available and feasible career paths to the vastly uneducated and/or illegal immigrant. The way a large portion of our fellow citizens feels immigrants to be worthless and lazy because they are illegal is another unfortunate issue. Truthfully, no one deserves these jobs regardless of how uneducated or illegal they may be at the moment. But slaughterhouse jobs are often viewed as the only feasible and legal way for these struggling people to make a living. Therefore, people end up working in these slaughterhouses and people cannot kill animals in terrible ways for eight hours a day without some serious psychological ramifications. I've heard the turnover rate in abattoirs to be nearly 100 percent on a six month timeframe. Aside from the billions of animals crushed by that particular industry, the humans who are forced into those jobs by circumstance and economic hardships are being abused by the billion dollar conglomerates as well. No one should be forced to make a living in such a place. Just because they are here illegally does not mean they are chattel and slaves to consequence. This goes into my belief that animal rights truly is human rights. If we freed the animals (so to speak), we would free ourselves in many different manners. Finally, I remain a fan of Paragon Music Magazine and Paragon Earth is going to do big things for animals and humans alike, I do believe. And I'm honored to be a part of it! Thanks for asking me to participate, and have a peaceful blue sky day.